Why you should use a Mac to study Japanese

what about LINUX? no one cares about tux anymore?

Yeah dude, sorry :P

"yeah dude, sorry"? is that a "yeah dude" as in "yeah dude, nobody cares about linux anymore"?
sad. not to mention false. :P

i use linux for all my computing needs, and i would never allow myself to be dragged into the mac world (too many things you can't do: i like my customization). and of course, the things i do on my computer include japanese learning.

and basically, i can say ubuntu's japanese support is superb, japanese language typing is borderline perfect (it has improved a lot), and with tools such as kiten as a desktop dictionary and tomoe for handwriting recognition (not in the touchpad, i grant you that), i don't really have any complaints whatsoever.

and by the way: maybe you could try to get the title right? the comparison you made is between mac and windows, not mac and pcs. pcs are hardware, and you were comparing software (with the exception of the camera bit). get your terms right, people! :)

Yes it is superb. Right now, I have scim-anthy and tomoe enabled on my Ubuntu install. I can easily shift from hiragana, katakana, kanji, even hangul, if you want with a few keystrokes.

Linux really meets all my needs too but still, it isn't for everyone (nor is Windows, nor is Mac). Not everyone really enjoys the hours of configuration Linux people do to personalize their machines, they want things working without doing too much. A lot of people are afraid of messing with their machines, thinking that configuration files require arcane magicks. To each their own.

I get that you want Linux to be recognized by people. I do too. I'm a Linux fanboy through and through, but by being an asshole about it, you're not really helping at all, you're just driving people away from the Linux community by pushing forward the stigma that Linux users are the stereotypical, antisocial geeks.

>>A lot of people are afraid of messing with their machines, thinking that configuration files require arcane magicks.

Werd. Gotta keep it clean! :)

I'm a *nix user as well and I didn't know about tomoe until I read your post.

wow...
i was reading your reply and found myself nodding at every single word...

until you called me an asshole?? wtf? i even put a smiley face on my reply! :P

i completely agree with what you said: there is no perfect operating system, because an operating system is but a tool, and tools are to be judged on how well they work for specific tasks. each operating system has its own problems, and its own solutions for their own set of problems, some more fortunate than others. in my comment i was simply making what i think is linux's case. where is the asshole-ness in that?

I've got nothing against Linux, just saying "sorry dude" because most people who read this blog really don't care about Linux, and I don't use Linux, so I have nothing to write about. I'll be installing Ubuntu at some point though, so maybe if I care enough I'll get Linux in on the fun... but really when it comes down to it, not enough readers use it. I think it's around 2% for this site - I have some friends who use it, and although it doesn't quite look like something I want to use, I enjoy trying things out.

And, as for Mac vs. PC terminology - I'd argue that it's changed over the last few years. BOTH Apple and Microsoft use this terminology now, and it's very widespread thanks to both the "I'm a Mac" and "Laptop Hunters" commercials. May not be technically correct, but lots of words change.

it's actually quite understandable that linux wasn't in this comparison. as you said, the user base is still small (specially compared to mac and windows users), and this never seemed to even try to be exhaustive. but it's also to be expected that someone was going to talk about other alternatives in the comments, right?

on the terminology aspect, i disagree (but hell, it's your blog, right?). microsoft has very good reasons to try and associate the term "PC" with their OS, and i would argue that if apple started using the term it was to be able to bash on windows in a more ... subtle manner.

the fact that it is widespread is only more regrettable: it doesn't make it any less of a misconception.

Long live the Penguin! :D

Haha, we've still a long way to go before us Linux folks would be able to convince Mac-heads and Windows users. Most Linux distros have great Japanese language support, though it's a bit more work than for either Windows or Mac.


http://tomoe.sourceforge.jp/cgi-bin/en/blog/ind... <-- Does handwriting recognition... Might not be as good as the mac thing, but it works...

I've used Linux a lot, and while the Open-Source philosophy is great, I have had hardware support issues GALORE. Now that my hardware is older, it's fine, but I use OS X now.

It's true, Linux has a great selection of software from the community (although from my experience a lot of it is buggy), it has a very customizable UI, lots of choice on how you want your computer to run (which drivers, what desktop environment, what default apps, etc). But the list of the awesome stuff about linux ends just about there... T.T

Mac OS X has a HUGE dev community who build quality apps. I have never experienced a crapware or other doesn't-do-what-it-promised apps on my Mac. Every app I have for my mac is superb with great UI and quality. I could say the same for Linux if there weren't billions of packages to sort through, most of them really buggy with the company endorsing it (RedHat for Fedora, etc) had blocked off all proprietary packages. I find the proprietary drivers are the ones that work. Sorry.

Linux is great if it has all the programs you want to run and it supports your hardware. Unfortunately, it just didn't do either of those things for me.

So, bottom line - if Linux does everything you want it to do and supports your hardware very well, and you like Linux - than good for you, you just go ahead and use it. WHatever floats your boat! ^^

But PLEASE don't try to get me to switch over. Been there, done that. Never again.

However, there's always the time when you want to fool around getting your hardware to work for fun... But I'm done with that.

OS X /JUST WORKS/ for me.

And I have a Hackintosh! xD

I would have to say that I disagree with number 2. Bringing hardware into a software comparison isn't quite fair. Windows is a software company and has no business in hardware or the manufacturing of computers. So it's more a case by case basis, I know my computer has them built in. But I will admit, number one is pretty darn nice.

First off, I totally agree with you. On another note, Microsoft really seems
to push the hardware in their laptop-finders commercials, though (when they
*should* focus on the software). I think Windows 7 will get them back in the
software game - they've had a tough time of it lately :(

Anyways, you're right, but I just have to bring hardware into it. Even if
it's not Microsoft's hardware, I need something to compare the Mac Hardware
side of things, and Dells, HP's, etc are the closest things I've got... at
which point I'd have to include Macs as possible Windows hardware... uh oh.
Black hole, black holeee!

I think Windows Vista installs the language packages by default... Windows XP on the other hand requires a manual install.

Good to know - never did the upgrade myself - maybe we can add half a point.

You're right, it does show Japanese text by default in Vista and 7, but enabling input is a little complicated and you need to install a "language support pack" to have all the menus in Japanese.

dam, well i can write on my Lenovo tablet, when i was learning hiragana and katakana, i probably saves hundreds of sheets of paper being able to write in my onenote... but this still makes me envious, great review!

That's right Viet, on Vista and W7 it takes less than 30 seconds (seriously) to activate Japanese writing. That trackpad writing thing looks genious though.

And about the Japanese text rendering, I have a suspicion that Koichi is using XP that does not turn on ClearType as a default, thus not smoothing out the text like Vista does. Is this right Koichi?

Keep up the good work Koichi, your blog looks great. It has been kinda quiet here lately. Too far from Japan?

RE: ClearType - yeah, could be. Apparently I need to upgrade to W7 here soon.

I'm a biased Apple fanboi, but here goes on my opinions.

Vista didn't enable cleartype by default for me...
Also, enabling Japanese input is way more complicated in Windows than in OS X. I needed to hnt around a lot to find it in Windows, but it was just right there in the International preference pane in OS X.

Now I have a Mac, so not a problem though! ^^

You truly are an Apple Fanboy.
Way to go for comparing Apple laptops to desktop PC's in general and THEN comparing the two OS's and THEN web applications and THEN system support of online video stream providers.

The real information value and significance of this comparison is ZERO. With any more Fanboy-driven comparions, the information value would actually be negative. ;P

Wow. Rant much?

Calm down, I thought it was a pretty fair comparison.

And Desktops are a dying breed - everyone else I know has a laptop.

"And Desktops are a dying breed - everyone else I know has a laptop."

That's why he said that it's unfair, this guy it's comparing apple LAPTOPS with pc DESKTOPS, every pc laptop has mic and webcam... but hey!, since when mac user has a fair view of the world... it's just a matter of the "jobs distorsion field". :-p

Also, the xp has kanji handwritting recognition since ages ago... not like the crappy mac:
http://singularity.agronesia.net/2007/03/31/jap...

Hello, Fabian.

Unfortunately, many PC laptops I have looked at require you pay extra for built-in webcams and microphones. In comparison, webcams and microphones come standard on every new Mac (Laptop or Desktop), and there is no build to order option to remove it.

In addition, your resorting to personally attacking Mac users just helps me to invalidate your points. If you really had an unbiased perspective (and half-brain), you would provide actual points and evidence to back them up instead of using Steve Job's cult of personality as an excuse to label all Mac user's points invalid. If you continue using this excuse, you could be labeled as an internet troll.

While Windows XP has handwriting Kanji recognition, I doubt many people use it when there are easier and faster ways of converting hiragana to kanji using an IME. While IMEs are available on both Mac and Windows personal computers, many prefer the Mac's Kotoeri IME over Microsoft's IME for Windows for many reasons. One of these reasons may be that Windows switches back and forth from US keyboard layout to IME mode to romaji based on what you input last in that field, potentially frustrating the end user by making them go through the input bar menu system to change the keyboard layout to what they would like to use. On the other hand, Mac OS X's input stays static until you manually change it, and you can easily change the keyboard layout with some quick hotkeys.

If you would like to argue that many people use the Kanji handwriting recognition software, Mac now has that support in the $29 upgrade to Mac OS X 10.6.0 Snow Leopard.

Windows may have had this functionality built-in first, but:

1) It does not rival the ease of use that the mac handwriting recognition has, maybe it was worth the wait for Mac users - especially when easy to use alternatives were available.
2) In this day and age of Web 2.0 there were many online interfaces that could be used for handwritten kanji recognition online, which could then be copied and pasted into native Apps.
and
3) I'm sure a 3rd party developed kanji handwriting recognition software for the Mac that runs natively. If I am mistaken, please excuse this third point. I believe the two above should suffice to support my point.

I hope this information helps you. Have a nice day,

MZLweasel

P.S.
If you go on ranting the next reply won't be so formal.

I think i'll point it out again. You CAN use shortcut keys to switch to Japanese writing mode. Once you have the keyboard installed it is a simple alt+shift and poof you are in japanese keyboard. From there you are in what ever mode last, yes, but with a simple alt+~ (without shift) you cycle back and forth from hirigana to romaji. If you want type in romaji without that shortcut simple start the word with the shift key held down. If you want katakana simply type out what you have to say and hit shift+i and it converts it to katakana. All of these shortcuts are easy to find if you actually look.

As for handwriting recognition for kanji we could go round and round on this issue at the end of they day it is personal preference. All i know is Vista is awesome when it comes to this and Windows 7 got even better. Plus there is always the ime pad which you can use if you want to draw out the kanji with your mouse or pen, without tablet input on.

I will throwdown that the IME pad in XP sucks, but that was fixed in Vista and Windows 7 and if you use either of those DON'T use IME pad unless you are hunting down a specific kanji.

1) Sorry, did you point that out before as well? I forgot.

Anyhow, I never knew of that feature in Windows and in Mac OS X it is clearly pointed out in the Language menu when you switch keyboard layout from the File Menu bar.

Again, it's less of a "the features don't exist in WIndows" thing and more of a "I can't find them in Windows" thing. It's just more convienient on a Mac. Of coruse, that's my opinion - there are people who prefer Windows (though I don't know why).

2) I personally have not used Vista/7's KANJI Handwriting, though I can say the english handwriting recognition was great. I have however used the Kanji handwriting pad in XP and it didn't work as well as the online one I use.

Again, I /personally/ prefer the IME because I just suck at remembering stroke order. I can see people liking handwriting more (obviously), as it would be MUCH faster for someone with practice.

yeah in mac it is easier to figure out the shortcuts for the keyboard switching. It is findable when you go looking but is a bit wonkier to find than it should be.

The kanji/kana recognition in vista/7 is similar to the english in easy and recognition. Though stroke order does help to make it easier. My tablet pc died due to a HP hardware problem :( and i picked up the bamboo wacom tablet for 70 bucks. And am back into writing on my computer again it works awesome.

Am looking at getting a dell mini 9 sometime in the future if I do i'll put osx on it and play around with some of the foreign language stuffs.

Well, if you want so, I'll answer point by point...

[Unfortunately, many PC laptops I have looked at require you pay extra for built-in webcams and microphon.....]

I mean, if you were in Nigeria ( nothing against that country though ), what you said would be true, in "here" and nowadays, 1 in every 100 PC laptops doesn't have a webcam. If I go downstairs to the walmart-like shop near my office, I wouldn't be able to buy a laptop without a webcam. So I don't know where you live, but in the real world and the first world, 99% of the PC laptops has a camera.

[ In addition, your resorting to personally attacking Mac users just helps me to invalidate your points. If you really had an unbiased perspective (and half-brain), you would provide actual points and ....]

My bad here, I generalized, and I meant the Mac User FANBOYS, that must be the 78% of the Mac users... and remember that 83% of the stats are made up... :-p
I got a Laptop PC ( Dell XPS M1330 ) but also an ( old ) Mac Book Pro and an Iphone, and what I mean with this is that it's not a matter of this one it's bad or this one it's good, it's a matter of been non-biased, and this guy ( and it seems you too ) are highly biased.

[ While Windows XP has handwriting Kanji recognition, I doubt many people use it when there are easier and faster ways of converting hiragana to kanji using an IME. While IMEs are availa .... ]

I think I don't have to waste my time answering this one, "Dumb Otaku" answered perfectly for me in the next post. But again, your point of view about how easy is to use the windows IME it's totally subjective.

[ If you would like to argue that many people use the Kanji handwriting recognition software, Mac now has that support in the $29 upgrade to Mac OS X 10.6.0 Snow Leopard. ]

That's a smart remark... I mean, three paragraphs before you were saying that you don't want to spend any extra money to include a webcam ( maybe a second webcam, because.. again.. most of the PC laptops has them ) on a PC laptop, and now, you're saying someone should spend 29$ on a OS upgrade... that's... mmm... funny?.

[ Windows may have had this functionality built-in first, but:

1) It does not rival the ease of use that the mac handwriting recognition has, maybe it was worth the wait for Mac users - especially when easy to use alternatives were available.
2) In this day and age of Web 2.0 there were many online interfaces that could be used for handwritten kanji recognition online, which could then be copied and pasted into native Apps.
and
3) I'm sure a 3rd party developed kanji handwriting recognition software for the Mac that runs natively. If I am mistaken, please excuse this third point. I believe the two above should suffice to support my point.]

Point 1 ---- It does not rival!?!?!??, and that sentence it's not biased????. It rivals, and it's been rivaling for the last eight years, that's for how long have been able the windows users to handwrite a kanji....

Point 2 ---- So, if you want to handwrite anything you better add another 50$ for the internet connection on a Mac... Did I say that the PC has one built in since 2000?.

Point 3 ---- I'm sure that for every 3rd party app for Mac, there's sixty for PC.


[ P.S.
If you go on ranting the next reply won't be so formal. ]

Sir, I may sound like a Troll, but you DO sound like a bully. If I want I'll answer any post I want in here ( as long as I don't insult anyone ) , and I don't really give a crap about your possible lack of formality.

Thank you

of course.. in this sentence ...
[ in "here" and nowadays, 1 in every 100 PC laptops doesn't have a webcam. If I go downstairs to the walmart-like shop ]

I meant

[in "here" and nowadays, 1 in every 100 PC laptops does have a webcam. If I go downstairs to the walmart-like shop]

And just to answer point by point the main post of the blog.

- Built-in Mic and Webcam. Mac 2 – PC 0 (Mac wins)
Every laptop PC has a webcam, and if it doesn't it cost 15$. ( tie )

- Japanese Learning Applications. Mac 3 – PC 1 (tie)
That's just simply bullshit, I mean, for every mac app there's ten for pc. ( pc wins )

- Language Support. Mac 4 – PC 1 (Mac wins)
As a few pointed out, this is simply not true ( tie )

- Japanese Text Rendering. Mac 5 – Windows 2 (tie)
This is as subjective as it gets. ( tie )

- Watching Japanese TV. Mac 5 – PC 3 (PC Wins, for once)
I wouldn't even include this one as an advantage for a computer ( install bootcamp ) ( tie )

His score 5 - 3 for the mac
Mine 5 - 4 for the pc

[I mean, if you were in Nigeria ( nothing against that country though ), what you said would be true, in "here" and nowadays, 1 in every 100 PC laptops doesn't have a webcam. If I go downstairs to the walmart-like shop near my office, I wouldn't be able to buy a laptop without a webcam. So I don't know where you live, but in the real world and the first world, 99% of the PC laptops has a camera.]

Apparently Canada is one the same level with Nigeria when it comes to having webcams in laptops. Who knew.

[My bad here, I generalized, and I meant the Mac User FANBOYS, that must be the 78% of the Mac users... and remember that 83% of the stats are made up... :-p
I got a Laptop PC ( Dell XPS M1330 ) but also an ( old ) Mac Book Pro and an Iphone, and what I mean with this is that it's not a matter of this one it's bad or this one it's good, it's a matter of been non-biased, and this guy ( and it seems you too ) are highly biased.]

I admit I'm probably biased, but not as much as you may think. Before Tiger came out, I was a Microsoft fanboy (believe it or not).

I use what works, and right now for me it's a Mac. OS X 10.1, 10.2 were a mess. 10.3 was okay, but 10.4 Tiger just blew me away.

Also, you need to stop pulling random data out of your @$$ and give me a reputable site which has the data on it, thanks. While MANY, MANY Mac users may be "fanboys", you are insulting us again. Please stop the name-calling nonsense.

[That's a smart remark... I mean, three paragraphs before you were saying that you don't want to spend any extra money to include a webcam ( maybe a second webcam, because.. again.. most of the PC laptops has them) on a PC laptop, and now, you're saying someone should spend 29$ on a OS upgrade... that's... mmm... funny?.]

Really? More insults?

For one, I'm not poor. Second, I was not complaining about spending "the extra money" on a webcam (which you even denied before, so I don't know why you're not telling me that I should have a webcam already), I was just pointing out that while you may have to pay extra for a webcam on a Wintel PC, Macs come with the Webcam (built in to the higher cost, presumably) WITH NO OPTION TO NOT HAVE ONE. Like Koichi said, it's hard to have a Mac that DOESN'T have a webcam. (Desktops Mac Pro and Mac Mini have a webcam built-in to the new Apple Cinema Display, which you buy separately.)

Also, new Macs will now come with Snow Leopard by default.

Moreover, Windows users like yourself should know that having the latest build of your OS is important for maintaining heightened security, not just for adding new features. Of course, Mac isn't secure right now (at all), but then again Macs don't really need to be because virus writers target PCs. And chances are Apple could easily keep Mac OS X secure as it is based on Unix.

[Point 1 ---- It does not rival!?!?!??, and that sentence it's not biased????. It rivals, and it's been rivaling for the last eight years, that's for how long have been able the windows users to handwrite a kanji....]

Yes, that sentence is not biased. Like I have stated time and time again, I use what works. And at this point the Handwriting recognition in Windows XP does not rival the ease of use of Mac OS X's offerings. Again, I cannot speak for Vista or 7's handwriting.

Please don't try to pull the "maybe we should compare OS X 10.1 to XP and see how it does". It's not our fault Microsoft kept XP around alone for all those years while Apple pushed out what I would consider 2 major updates (10.5 and 10.4) and 3 (10.1, 10.2 and 10.3) minor updates to Mac OS X. And to add insult to injury, Microsoft pushed out a flawed and not-at-all-ready operating system to unsuspecting Windows users (yes, I'm talking Vista). Yes, Vista was fine after a year or so for /most/ (not all, the hardware manufacturers did not do a great job supporting Vista with its low market penetration) people, but it was wrong of them to release Vista before it was ready.

Apple OS releases are /always/ high quality, polished and ready for prime-time when they are released, much to the delight of Apple enthusiasts like myself.

[Point 2 ---- So, if you want to handwrite anything you better add another 50$ for the internet connection on a Mac... Did I say that the PC has one built in since 2000?.]

This makes absolutely no sense.

If you are trying to tell me that Apple still charges $49 for an airport card, you are really behind the times. They come built into the (higher) price now, thank you very much. Your point here is invalid.

[Point 3 ---- I'm sure that for every 3rd party app for Mac, there's sixty for PC.]

Yes, but out of those Sixty PC apps, one or two might be okay while the rest are crapware. Every app I have ever downloaded for Mac OS X has been a polished work of art that works exactly as advertised and looks great doing so.

And that's beside the point - my original point was that there /are/ third party solutions available.

What would you rather have, quality or quantity? I don't know about you, but I don't need any more crapware on my self-built beige box PC. It's quality all the way for me. Which is why I use a Mac.

[Sir, I may sound like a Troll, but you DO sound like a bully. If I want I'll answer any post I want in here ( as long as I don't insult anyone ) , and I don't really give a crap about your possible lack of formality.]

Why yes. You DO sound like a troll. I hardly believe I sound like a bully (other than my holier-than-thou attitude right now), I am merely pointing out all the flaws in your "points".

And for a few seconds here I WILL be a bully:

Please go back to grade school and learn your grammar and spelling. Thanks!

MZLweasel

I have a tablet PC that proves you wrong.

1) Tablet PCs are -far- superior to a trackpad for writing kanji.

2) Tablet PCs have builtin mic and cam, just like macbooks. (And note that mac pros do -not- have built in mic and cam.)

3) PCs have many more options when it comes to language learning software. Sure, there are quite a few cross-platform apps, but why would you limit yourself to just them?

1) Very few people have tablet PC's, though.

2) I said it's hard not to buy a mac without a built-in isight. You'd have to buy a mac mini or, as you say, mac pro, which are the least popular macs out there. Everything else comes with.

3) What's so good on PC that I can't get on a mac? I want to try them out, could make for a good article!

Even if very few people *have* them, that doesn't mean that you should use a Mac over one. My HP Tx2500 was 800 bucks with 4GB of RAM, a 320GB HDD, and it's a tablet PC. Tablet Macs *are* available, but for two or three times that much, and sometimes not quite as generously spec'd.

If you were to re-do this article as a comparison between Macs and tablet PCs, it'd come out to a tie if you judged on all the same criteria. But when you throw in the concept that tablet PCs are far cheaper than Macs, they come out on top. :P

P.S.: I'm writing this on a unibody Macbook, and I love it. I was lucky enough to get one for free, and I use it just as much as my HP, but I use the HP for other things that the Mac just can't do, and vice-versa.

It would be even better if you compare an XT 8088 PC from the 90 with the new mac pro quadcore, that would make it even a more fair comparison... sure....
You should compare "the best pc for japanese" with "the best mac for japanese", that would be fair, and in that case, the tablet pcs are FAR better than the macs.

1) I know! Modbook 4 EVER!!!! (Before you ask me, GOOGLE IT.) And before you rant about pricing, equivalent Windows tablets will run you $2000 as well. Hey.. wait a minute, don't you need third-party software (on both platforms, at least until Snow Leopard - haha!) to do kanji-handwriting recognition?

2) Pretty much all laptops have a mic and cam. And why are you comparing Tablet PCs to the Desktop Mac Pro? Plus, nobody uses Desktops anymore except media professionals, programmers, tech enthusiast types, and me.

3) What koichi-san said. Hello? Rosetta Stone? I only use Rosetta Stone and online resources like "About.com Japanese" and "Nihongo o Narau" along with "Lang-8", and I've been doing great. From my experience, the only native app that has worked for me is "Rosetta Stone", and mabye "Human Japanese". What other (cr)apps do you use on Windows?

Having worked with Japanese things on both Mac and PC I have to heartily agree that Mac is far superior. (And I'm only half-fanboy xD)

First off, everyone's right that nowadays many LAPTOP PCs have webcams built in. But if you have a desktop, you're pretty much out of luck for a built-in solution. (This is true on the Mini and the Pro too, but the vast majority of people who buy desktop Macs today buy iMacs.) And honestly, these built in webcams have pretty crappy quality. I've tried vidchatting with both Mac and PC users (on similar connections, so no, the PC kids don't just have crappy bandwidth) and the PC quality is always terrible.

Second, why not compare the hardware? It's a legitimate advantage (or disadvantage) that Mac has, creating their own hardware. Nothing's stopping Microsoft from doing it.... though I wouldn't really suggest it. (Zune, hee.)

That said once I went through the rigamarole of installing Japanese language packs onto my old XP computer, I had lots of fun with it. Even if it was annoying as @#*%#%#* to try to actually use it quickly... >.<

Jusssssst my 2¢. :]

And of course... no one, i mean NO ONE could afford a 5 bucks webcam for the desktop pc... I mean, everybody knows that pcs are so much more expensive than macs that you can't afford expending any more money, do they?.

*troll hat on*

Mac = overpriced PC for posers

If you want a PC with a mic and webcam buy a PC with a mic and webcam, I would rather have the option than pay for something I would never use (which is why I don't own a webcam).

I don't think you've used Windows in a while, Japanese support can be added through Windows Update in both Vista and WIndows 7( what im using )

I think you should actually know what you are talking about before you start comparing

*troll hat off*

I'll give you the writing chinese characters which is pretty cool

In fact it's pretty obvious your using XP for this, which is 8 years old...

I thought everyone still uses XP - I guess I'm behind the times :( I'll upgrade up to W7 here soon though, excited to try it out.

As for macs being overpriced... yeah, can't argue with that. But, I pay for things like unibody, nifty, OS, keyboard, etc. Still overpriced, but all things I'm willing to pay a bit more for my snobbiness factor ;)

I have a PC and, while I would love to own a Mac, I am happy with it. And when I was shopping for one, I actually couldn't find one without a mic and webcam. I love my PC and it gets everything I need done. And besides, my best friend has a Mac and she actually says that my computer is nicer than hers. *cough*traitor*cough*

I'm willing to pay a few hundred dollars extra for something with many more features, a super pretty OS, great build quality and (proven) longer overall life (mabye I just should have said infinitely more useful and pretty). Plus you can sell used macs for a lot more than used OEM Windows hardware.

Yeah, MAC is absolutely better!

I've not seen all the details on Snow Leopard, but Windows has an IME Pad that does kanji recognition &c.

Like if a fanboy would even care for facts... :-)

Personally, I just have the Japanese language setting as default on my XP computer. When I want to switch between English and Japanese, I just use Alt+~ to switch quickly and back. No need to switch language packs beforehand because it's set to Japanese by default.

The thing is that on an XP, you can type in English in the Japanese keyboard. =I

Nice article :D~ But they actually made a KeyholeTV for macs now (woot!) I downloaded it a few weeks ago :3

BTW, do you recommend extending the apple care plan?

Yeah, I would. I do think it's overpriced, but sometimes it's worth it. I didn't get it, and I've been fine for three years, but I also know how to do computer repair stuff if I need it... I think most people recommend the extended warranty though

I know the first lot of macs my design school got, out of the 20 about 3 had severe screen problems. Even though I've had no problems yet, I still feel better having that extended warranty.

About Macs vs PC though, I have a PC laptop and the japanese support has the drawing function I can use with a graphics tablet. It surprised me that I couldn't do that on my imac. But the ease of installation compared to XP was great.

I always love it when a Mac beats PC in ...anything. Yeah I mean when it comes to gaming you usually gotta have a PC but for everything else Macs are sexy and awesomeR w:)

Good article Koichi-sensei, but I would like to add that as far as the languages go, with VISTA it is the same as a mac. No need to add/install Japanese language, it's there by defualt installation. ^__^

What are you talking about??? All the kool kids use Ubuntu now! Hurry up, get yours here: www.ubuntu.com
Everything that is software related is in your list is better in Ubuntu. See:
* built-in language support beats both Windows and Mac OS;
* Webcam and mic work out-of-the box in Ubuntu;
* Streaming technology in Ubuntu is way better, so watching TV is Ubuntu's thing;
* Learning apps that work on Windows usualy work on Ubuntu under Wine. Don't know about Mac app, though...

So, basicaly Mac hardware rocks, software beats Windows, but gets beaten by Ubuntu.

Wine never worked for me. NEVER.

Sure... and you just need a PHD for installing a non standard webcam...

I dunno how it works on windows (I can usually never figure out how to actually use Japanese / whether it's already installed / whatever in windows) but Japanese on a Mac is pretty much easy as パイ and I thoroughly appreciate that.

You also didn't mention one of the greatest things ever -- the built-in Japanese-English dictionary on OSX (inside the Dictionary app). I didn't discover it for quite some time, but it makes my life SO much easier, especially in situations where I'm deprived of an internet connection.

I'm also pretty excited about Snow Leopard input chinese-character input ^_^ And hoping for input-switching to speed up a bit in iPhone 3.0...

I have to say I disagree with you on the text rendering though -- yeah the differences may be subtle, but I think the way it looks on a Mac induces far less eye-pain and is smoother overall. </apple fangirl>

Wow, good to know! I'm going to have to look into this! Rock on rock on

すごい！I had no idea about the japanese dictionary function. I just checked it out (you've got to click them in prefs first) but that is so awesome!

Yeah, thanks for reminding me about the prefs (that's why I didn't discover it for the longest time either!) so I just threw a post on my own blog about this little known, but very useful function:
http://mokudekiru.com/2009/06/use-the-mac-osx-b...

Japanese Windows Mobile had that since the ages of times... but hey!, who cares!, it doesn't exist until Mr.Jobs say so....

I knew this post would get a lot of comments. I'd like to add another point for Mac. The OS X Dictionary comes with support for Japanese out the box too, in the preferences you can turn on Japanese-Japanese, English-Japanese, and a Japanese thesaurus as well as Wikipedia in Japanese, I used to use it for example sentences. Though whatever computer you use you can just go to goo.ne.jp and use their dictionary because it's the same thing. Anyways good post!

hehe, yeah. This post is definitely a comment bait post :)

Thanks for the info on the dictionary, it's my new best friend now!

Yeahh dont forget Linux man ;)

By the way.. Do you habe a key for freshverse? ;) Thanks!

Actually, now that you mention it, I do!

7AqiAkGr4sqTQqWKS5

Was wondering what these were...

Nice post Tofugu-chan, even though completely biased :P I have to admit, having come from Windows to OSX, the Japanese support is far easier to utilise on a Mac. I had so many driver problems and faffing around on Windows...

I'm interested in the new kanji recognition on Snow Leopard, but a little miffed they decided to bring out a 13" Macbook Pro after I've gone and bought my Macbook. Sod's Law as usual.

Koichi: you're so biased..but that's okay, as I would have been too, had I written this post! I recently made the move to Mac and have never looked back. The Japanese support is so good it's ridiculous, a point which I mentioned in my latest 'Japanese aesthetics' post at caught-redhanded.com. Another feature is that if you come across a Japanese word in a website, then you can look it up via Mac's dictionary and it'll give you a definition right there, much like one of the plug-ins for Firefox.

@Mike you're right, there is just too much faffing about with Windows, and like Koichi said, you have to install the damn thing before you can even use it, which is a chore in itself.

Great post!

My favorite thing about my mac... I can make caps lock switch between Japanese and romaji (caps lock on, type in Japanese, caps lock off, type in English). I have been trying forever to get my pc to do it with no luck.

If you have vista and are using MS Word, you can press shift + the character you want and it will write the character using the latin alphabet (so you can type in romaji). I just kind of stumbled in here lol... No real opinions about Mac or PC.

I just got tired of Windows. I found linux to be to much effort to use as a desktop OS, so OSX was my only hope. After using OSX for a while, I doubt I will ever go back to Windows. Except to play games.

The OS X only JEDict dictionary app is good. And free.
"JEDict has internal text editor, multilingual user dictionary, JLPT list viewer and web browser with contextual word translation."
http://www.jedict.com/

The cross platform dictionary/study aid Tagaini Jisho is also good.
http://www.tagaini.net/

Hmmm, I'm not really that much into Macs just because I grew up on PCs so I haven't a clue on how to work the mac stuff, haha.

But a lot of the stuff seems more like a convenience than anything, haha. Though the language imput thing is much nicer and simpler than window's language bar thing for the xp.

I love my overuse of stuff, thing, and haha in this comment. P;

Yea, I'm not thoroughly versed in the Mac vs PC debate, but I've always used a PC and I'm not sure I'd switch simply because of familiarity.

The windows language bar is pretty obnoxious though.

And aren't macs more expensive?? :(

Yep, and that's why we're such snobs :)

Macs are nice and all, but I hate Kotoeri (the mac Japanese typing input system) SO. VERY. MUCH. The punctuation is weird (Why does it always want to change 「」　to 〈〉???), I haven't figured out how to edit mistakes during ye olde henkan procedure (is this possible and I just don't know?), and its "recently used words" feature is close to useless. That is my current major complaint.

My other big problem is that I switch between a JP-keyboard PC at work and a US-keyboard Mac at home, so the punctuation issue gets even worse. Where's the plus again? Crap, the apostrophe doesn't require the shift key? SO CONFUSED!

Not to mention the fact that you can't have any sort of English when typing in Japanese. On OS X, it's either you're typing English with the romaji setting or you're typing Japanese with either of the kana settings.

You can't mix both in there...I tried. However, you can also add some English on Windows by just capitalizing the first letter you type. That technique doesn't really work on OS X.

No, in OS X when you capitalize the first letter it turns it to katakana.

When I said "You can't mix both in there," I meant that you can't mix English with Japanese without switching to romaji beforehand.

I don't get it, but... um....

Okay?

speaking of OSX and Japanese, anyone had any trouble finding kanji characers? I just went to type a friend's name in and couldn't find 洋 (hiro)

hmm... probably because that is よう? never ever seen or heard of it spoken as hiro

according to my dictionary
洋 (水) ヨウ, N: なだ, ひろ, ひろし, よ, よし ocean, western style

Well, since I'm currently doing a massive directed study project involving the drama "Fuurin Kazan," I too was having problems writing people's names, perhaps because those names written with those kanji aren't common these days. I had been typing "hareru", deleting the -reru, then typing "nobu" to get "Harunobu" （晴信）. Luckily, while switching between hiragana and romaji with the keyboard shortcuts, I accidentally hit ctrl-shift-n, which opens the Kotoeri Tango Touroku, so you can register words quickly in the User's dictionary. This way, I was able to finally write "Harunobu" in one go!

For me, typing in Japanese is so much easier on a Mac. The only thing Microsoft has on Apple in this field is that Word supports furigana while Pages doesn't. So far anyway.

woah thank you very much, this register words feature is outrageously useful!

I have tried macs and just not been able to get into it. However, I have found no better dictionary than (the sadly outdated) Wakan. Windows only :)

You say that KeyholeTV is only for windows but they released a Mac version a while ago :p I use it on my mac :p

Very cool, time to check it out.

I figure I'd join in on this flame war, seeing has I constantly start these things.

To correct a few things:

In point two, you claim that web cam and mic built in is a good thing when in fact it's not necessarily. Keeping in mind the tech specs of a Mac box, you could easily find the equivalent in PC with money left over to purchase expensive/good microphone/webcam. It's rather unfair to call it 'better' because in fact it's not. If you compare both products for the price, the 'pc' branded items would prevail. Albeit, it's easier, but if something tries to be easy then the smart suffer.

On to language support. East Asian language files come standard with any Vista machine or later. Even so, installing language files on WinXP consists of putting your WinXP cd in the disk tray and pressing a button.

I noticed you didn't enjoy the text rendering in Windows. I'd like to mention that every popular browser uses different font faces. Also, make note that Firefox (stable) does not score that well on the Acid3 test, which is a test to see if the browser complies with standards for rendering web pages. Personally, I like how Opera presents Japanese characters.

While Chrome is not part of the software available to Macs (or Linux for that matter), there is an open source project called Chromium. The developers of chromium took the Chrome source code, and implemented their own features. So technically there is chrome for Macs.

On top of this, I don't like the Mac OS X user interface. It just seems counterintuitive. I like to have navigation menu for the computer separate from the program itself. I'd rather just have both menu bars available. I've had to use a Mac for multimedia editing, and it was just horrid. I'm not getting something, because everyone seems to go crazy for mac editing. Someone please explain it to me.

But I digress, computers suck. There is no definitive good, because good is a subjective word and we all have our own definition. You may like Mac or PC, but keep it to yourself. No one really cares, besides software companies.

COUNTER INTUITIVE!?!?!?

*Nods head* Crazy people...

The point of the changing menu bar is that the menus are ALWAYS relevant to the program you are using.

You are supposed to launch and switch apps with the dock.

I find it very convenient, but it is a matter of opinion...

I prefer having both menu options available .

*sigh*

You just stick with what you like, then.

Will do!

lol. :)

Not sure if somebody has already mentioned this in the above comments but you can get KeyHole TV on the Mac also.

Thanks for a very informative blog. We all have our own preferences when it comes to techie things. This site might interest some of your friends.

I'm still curious as to why the realgodzilla site is down!lol

cease and desist from Toho Inc :(

Oh right,but I wonder why they care and how they found out so fast lol.
Were they offended by Godzilla questioning his sexuallity?lol

That's exactly when it happened, sadly :(

I just want to add JEDict to the list of things that you can only get on Mac. Though it isn't free like using jisho.org it does have a few extra bells and one extra whistle.

i assume you could use http://www.justin.tv on your mac... that has quite a few japanese channels on it ;)

Cool, I did not know that. Will check it out.

I agreed with most of what you said, even though I'm a PC user xD. But I'd have to disagree with you about the text, I would have thought that windows has a more natural look then mac.

Koichi,

First off, don't get me wrong. I'm an Apple fan. Getting a Mac and iPhone are in my wish list. But, I'm not sure about "Writing Japanese Characters (Kanji). Mac 1 - PC 0 (Mac wins)" and I think it could be a tie actually.

You can write Japanese characters on a PC via mouse pad. On my Windows XP machine, for example, go to Control Panel -> Regional and Languages Options, click on the Languages tab, then (1) make sure the "Install files for East Asian Languages" checkbox is checked; (2) click the "Details..." button, the Text and Input Languages window should appear, then click the "Add..." button, you can then add Japanese language and make sure you've got "Microsoft IME Standard 2002 ver. 8.1" selected for your keyboard.

<img src="http://i39.tinypic.com/2le3v42.jpg" border="0" alt="">

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=y...

Multi-touch technology is getting cheaper by the day; more affordable solutions are being released constantly. Samsung has multi-touch technology in its cellphones, so it's easy to imagine Samsung screens making the most of W7's multi-touch support with a competitive price.

I sat through a 5 hour business proposal for a pen system that costs around $70 USD and can turn any standard monitor into a touch screen from Windows XP up. But even that is being rendered unnecessary.

So why use a trackpad when you can use the screen itself?

As for the built-in camera - No thank you. I tend to move my camera around a lot, so I appreciate that it isn't fixed to my monitor. (For example, Skyping with my State-side mother and being able to show her my daughter running around the house)

I've never had a problem installing any foreign language on a Windows PC, especially Vista. (Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Hebrew, Spanish - All right there, with no installation disc)

Bottom line:

Mac - It's like a PC, only more expensive and less upgradeable.

(Obligatory computer-use history: I used a Windows PC throughout university, switched over to a Mac for 2 years and enjoyed the experience for what it was worth with Tiger, and came back to Windows again. I only use my old Mac G4 Powerbook when my wife is busy compiling her thesis research on our Windows system. Why can't she use the mac for it? Because it doesn't support all of the programs she needs! Haha!)

Very good, thanks :) and look this http://www.megaportail.com/Art_et_Loisirs/4416-...

I don't really believe there is a "best" operating system for students of Japanese. Most RSR software works on Windows, Mac, and Linux. Firefox and it's invaluable add-ons are cross-platform (at least all of the add-ons relevant to Japanese learners are). Since TVAnts (Windows, Linux through Wine) stopped broadcasting Japanese channels, KeyHoleTV is the best software for watching Japanese television... on Linux, Windows, and Mac. As for one of the best dictionaries, EDICT, that's accessible through your browser or through the countless programs that exist for each OS. Mic and camera? You'll get it to work on any OS, although the first time may require a bit of setting up if you use Linux.

There isn't really a point in comparing Linux to Mac and Windows by the way. Windows is Windows XP and Windows Vista, practically speaking. Apple is the latest version of OS X, and perhaps the previous one in so far as Apple still finds those users cool enough to be worthy of Apple's consideration (the Mighty Mouse, which came out when OS X 10.4 was the latest version, would not let users install the accompanying software under 10.3. Surely software that enabled a few special button clicks on the new mouse was way beyond what 10.3 could handle...).

As for "Linux", there is no such thing. Are we talking about Ubuntu 9.04 with Gnome? Or are we talking about OpenSuse with KDE? Slackware with Ratpoison? Knoppix with whatever? Or one of those feature-limited "user-friendly" distros that come with certain netbooks?

There will always be an IT-elite that demands more than what the mass market provides. Most computer users feel most comfortable using Windows or Mac OS X, but some will require an OS build on the Linux philosophy. Most people like to read Stephen King or Dan Browne, but there will always be literati who require something more sophisticated, like James Joyce. And among the IT-elite, you will have those who have are proud of their elite status because they manage to use an Ubuntu machine, just like there are those who think they are literati because they have worked through Jaymes Joyce Ulysses... and there are those who distinguish themselves by reading Joyce's lesser-known works, in the same way that there are those who wouldn't be caught dead using anything more accessible than Gentoo Linux.

Full disclosure: Xubuntu 9.04.

Ever since windows XP you've had the option for handwritten character recognition using either the mouse or your trackpad. The mac experience might be smoother than the windows XP, but it is also 7 or 8 years late.
And as you write, "if it's anything like the iPhones..." then it will look up characters in a Chinese dictionary, not a Japanese character dictionary as windows does. And no, they are not the same Windows also has build-in radical look-up.
I've found myself a huge fan of the F17-F10 shortcuts for converting input to romaji or katakana (half-width or double-width) extremely useful, how does mac stack up on that?

I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but KeyHoleTV is available for OSX too. It's not the best quality stream though, but it's adequate background noise.

I also wanted to apologize if I've set off the spam alert; I screwed up the DISQUS registration earlier and posted two times as a guest because of that. ごめん

EDIT
Seems my previous comment has been deleted by mentioned spam alert, I'll paste it below as it took my almost half an hour to write ... 行くぜ。。

/joining the flame war

I can't actually agree on ANY of the "Mac wins" parts. Let's get started:

1) The issue with the touch pad
Regardless whether we're talking about touch pads on a Mac or a PC, I think that training "writing" (can this even be called "writing"?) on a touchpad is actually pretty useless if you do not use a pen-like input device. I mean, if you don't plan to do handwriting in japanese, why even bother with writing and not just learn to read the kanji? Also, even the electronic dictionaries (Ex Words or Sharps, f.e.) use a stylus for direct input, so trying to learn writing by fiddling your fingers on a flat surface seems a bit futile to me ...
Also, learning with a computer and actually writing the symbols is not difficult at all - some of you may remember the "magic drawing" pads that were sometimes included in children's magazines? People who've recently had operations at their oral cavities and can't speak yet -or mute people in general- use so-called "permanent writing pads" like this one: http://www.kath-kunststoffe.de/images/printator...
Those pads are inexpensive, can be bought over the web and are perfect for practicing kanji writing.

2) Built-In mic and webcam
I am calling bull especially on that one. It is actually quite hard to find a modern windows laptop WITHOUT mic and webcam. To "prove" my point, I've sort of randomly picked out three popular windows computers:
Samsung NC10
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-NC10-14GB-10-2-In...
Sony VAIO VGN-NS235J/S
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-VGN-NS235J-15-4-Inch...
HP Pavilion DV4-1227US
http://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-DV4-1227US-14...

All those laptops have a microphone and a webcam built in.

3) Learning programs
Adding some programs on the PC side:
The age-old, but golden program Wakan ( http://wakan.manga.cz/ ) has already been mentioned. I know of no program with that much functions that can be run on a Mac without emulation. The character detail menus have nanori readings, indices of more than a dozen important kanji dictionaries (Heisig, Hadamitzky, O'Neill, Gakken, Morohashi, to name just a few), there is an example sentence database and there is a popup-tool similar to rikaichan that can be used ANYWHERE in windows (you have to set it up properly, though), including, but not limited to, word documents, PDF hypertext documents, file names and more.

Then there is the freeware EBWIN ( http://www31.ocn.ne.jp/~h_ishida/EBPocket.html ), a program with which you can open and search japanese-language dictionaries in the EPWING format (see http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPWING for more information on the file format). This format is a quasi-standard when it comes to japanese dictionaries and there are many japanese-japanese dictionaries like the koujien and the kenkyuusha that you can use with this program. As most entries describe japanese words in japanese language, it is a tool for advanced learners rather than beginners.
There are currently no EPWING reader programs for the mac, at least as far as I know. So, if we don't count web applications (because most of them can be used on any system), I'd rather make this a PC 1 - Mac 0.

4) Language support
While the language support criticism may have been partly true for Windows XP where you had to manually install the language files and set up the language bar, it is definitely not true on Vista anymore. The language bar doesn't do strange things unless it's been told to do so, you can switch between different languages with an ALT + SHIFT keystroke and you can switch between kana and rômaji with an ALT + ^ (tilde) keystroke. You can also specify a bias for general vocabulary, speech vocabulary and, very useful, names. A user above noted that he had problems typing the name Hiro for the kanji 洋. If you switch the Vista language bar bias to names and type in “hiro”, the kanji the user was looking for would’ve been on the second page.
The vista handwriting recognition is a DREAM, it always recognizes the kanji, no matter how bad I draw and the conversion actually ‘learns’, i.e. conversions you use more often turn up higher in the conversion menus.
There is also the furigana functionality in MS Word that was already present in Word Xp and Word 2003 – you mark Japanese sentences, choose the phonetic guide option and set up the furigana. While Open Office has a similar functionality, it doesn’t automatically fill in most of the readings and can’t be configured that excessively. For more on furigana in Word, check out http://thejapanesepage.com/fun/furigana_in_word and http://jpop.groups.vox.com/library/post/6a00cd9...

I’d rather call this a tie, or, if there are no writing programs with automatic furigana creation on the Mac, a win for the PC.

5) Japanese text rendering
Nothing to add here, I don’t think that point is important. Like Koichi said, “It’s just text we’re talking about”.

6) Japanese Television
I would call this rather a tie than a win for the PC. While I’m not that much of a television watcher, I know that many Japanese TV stations have a webpage with interactive players that can be used by both Mac and PC users.

I wrote this because of the partly quite rampant misinformation in both the article and the comments.

I also want to clarify that I am not an Apple or a Mac hater (I’m actually waiting for an iPod Touch right now, bought it because of the many, many good Japanese-related programs), but rather a hater of no-compromise, irrational Mac fanboys as well as irrational Mac-bashing retards. Apple surely does produce good hardware and software, but terms like “overpriced, glossy white shitware” are not entirely ungrounded when you can get yourself a similar-looking (a white Sony VAIO, f.e.) laptop for half the price with better hardware.

What about PC users who have desktops? That's still a significant (though slowly shrinking) amount of the population. The most popular desktop Mac (iMac) has a built in camera. I haven't been PC shopping in a while, but you'll be hardpressed to find a PC desktop system with a cam built that works seamlessly with the other parts.

I think I mentioned in a comment before as well, the video quality of the built-in PC webcams is generally much worse than those of the iSight camera on Macs, just from my observation. (Yes I am taking different connection speeds into account.)

PS: overpriced glossy white shitware? hmm... sony hits all four of those quite frequently imho xD

While I have to agree with you on the point that PC monitors with integrated webcams were quite rare a while ago, they aren't that rare now; Dell, among other producers, are offering TFTs with integrated webcams: http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displa...

I also should add that I don't consider webcams that important for learning japanese, speech (i.e. microphone quality) is far more important since learning as you'd do it on Edufire and other sides rellies on speaking and understanding far more than video quality.

Just a random thought to throw in, further muddying the waters....what about portability (not laptop, but pocket sized!)

I use (and have for about 3 years now) software for my phone (was pda) that takes advantage of the touch screen and stylus to learn stroke order, work flash cards and more - check it out at http://www.declan-software.com/japanese/ and note they are starting to port over to Iphone/Ipod Touch (already have the flash cards up and running!)

I think a better discussion would be how to learn with portability - hand held or laptop/netbook?

My vote goes to my iPhone, of course :)

I'd say go with the Touchbook. (GOOGLE IT.)

A netbook tablet for $299!

Cool AND cheap!!!

I dual boot windows XP through my imac, and i can say with confidence, that everything which both operating systems can do (with a few exceptions) MacOS does better. I'm talking everything, from little interface perks like hot corners to the very intuitive file management system.
The problem with MacOS, is the stuff it can't do, ie run a massive number of applications which i use every day. But thats why i installed bootcamp. :P

Well, at least Windows and Mac users can agree that they're both better than Linux :P

Having an intuitive OS helps muchly in language learning, as you spend less time messing with the software, and more time actually learning. And I'm sure you can all agree that's what you should strive for in learning Japanese (or any language).

haha, watch out! You'll make some enemies!

I am going to throw in the mix here with my "review".

First of all the original concept of this post is kind of cool. However, to be honest the execution is an epic fail because you even admit it is biased so no real value can be had from this review as you honestly have not completely vetted windows when it comes to Japanese.

I say that because you are haphazared in what you compare where finding the best of mac and the worst of windows compare. And you don't even seem to be using the latest version of windows. Instead you are using the latest version of OSX and a 7 year old of version of windows. I'd be willing to bet if i compared windows 7 to OS 10.0 the first objection is in version of OSX.

Also when it comes to hardware you argue about what is coming/what is around with the newest Macs, but totally disregard older macs to some degree so this varies actual results. A lot. So allow me to provide a similar review to yours but actually using a modern version of windows and hardware that is designed for such things.

My reviews are based on laptops/tablets because it seems that is becoming the most popular form factor of a computer for people to buy unless they neeeeed the power of a Desktop.

Writing:
If you want to bring hardware into play lets look at tablet PC's for writing since you are talking about a pad that not all macs have. Tablet PC's kick the crap out of any handwriting recognition has, however as more people get macs they will get a type of handwriting recognition though it will be cumbersome for really writing over just practicing. So the Tablet PC with windows wins when it comes to writing. I bought a tablet specifically so I can write out math for classes and write do Japanese on the computer to practice writing without having to use paper.

That said if you are after learning/practice then I would have to say they tie.

Built-in Mic and Webcam:
You should have at least given a half a point becuase you have two things here you are comparing. Most laptops come with a mic since like 1997 and as recent as 2004 many many laptops come with webcams. My tablet I have has both and I use it quite a bit with others flawlessly. So since we are going to compare lets be honest and have a tie or at least a Mac 1 Windows .5 since the webacm isn't present only 60% of windows based laptops.

Japanese learning applications:
I can agree with this one since most applications are cross-platform and more and more becoming web apps.

Language Support:
This is one of the biggest areas I have a problem with in your review as in comments you seem to only be using XP to do this review without regard that Vista and Windows 7 are much better. This alone is horrible when it comes to doing your review as you aren't being honest by using the latest version of software available.

As for the bar that thing is superconfigurable i only have one key combination to get to hirigana and japanese. However it does seem to get in the way in XP only. Vista and Windows 7 are just fine.

Japanese Text Render:
Pretty much agree they both do a good job the only thing to change would be you should use something above XP to get default Clear Type text rendering for much nicer look.

Watching Japanese TV:
I don't know a lot about this one on mac, but what I do know I amgoing to disagree with you as most japanese tv I see streaming wise through the browser works on both platforms and since KeyHole TV has a mac verstion now that a friend tested out for me I'd have to say they are tied on the watching TV. Especially if you got the slingbox route as there is a mac client for the sling box.

Conclusion:
That all i'd say they are pretty well tied. If you actually compare similar products to similar products and take out the biases a bit more.

@Kris for converting to katakana write out everything in hirigana hit ctrl+i and it will convert it to katakana before you hit enter

sage

But nobody uses Vista. And don't kid yourself, it's still a hell of a lot harder to ENABLE support in Vista than is OS X.

You can do it, for sure, and it displays the text right out of the box, but enabling INPUT cn be complicated (though not as much as XP) and CHANGING ALL THE MENUS to Japanese involves leaving your computer on overnight to download a language pack.

It just all comes with OS X and you turn it on by marking a very easy to find checkbox.

Sorry I am about to be rude, but you are a dumbass if you actually believe no one uses Vista, sorry. Vista has sold more units than XP has. I can walk through any college in america and I will see more Vista than ANY other OS by a long shot. I will also see more Mac than XP. I don't understand this notion that people actually think people don't use Vista its ridiculous. Apple spreads good fud about Vista, but they too are dumbasses in half the stuff they talk about in their commercials.

As for your points of enableing Japanese. It is easier to enable it in mac, but not by a lot. I have a friend that is mac user and it took him about 10 minutes to figure it out. Check this out for enabling japanese langauge support for writing in Japanese.

http://www.buddylindsey.com/Blog/post/Writing-S...

As for switching to japanese language that is a matter of a checkbox, at least on the 5 vista computers I have done it on and all it required was a log off and log back in no downloading anything ever to do it. XP is the only one I have had to download stuff for.

Sorry, I'm about to get rude, but if your friend took 10 minutes figure out how to enable Japanese on OS X, then HE IS AN IDIOT.

Sorry.

And you can have your opinion on which one is easier, that's fine. I just think about 90% of people would say it is MUCH easier on a Mac.

BTW, seen Windows Mojave? Yeah, people are afraid of Vista.

As for your "college OS" speech:

http://www.jacobpierce.com/blog/2008/06/07/stan...

Or mabye that's cause college people are not as computer smart as university people. (Okay, that was just mean.)

As for market share in general:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/os%20market%...

And me, I had Vista and I hated it. I had new hardware and the support (though generally not MS's fault) was complete crap and I was running on half-working buggy crashing drivers for a year. It was hell. And then, I hackintoshed it and it worked PERFECTLY the whole time. Gee, wierd, huh? The OS meant for my hardware worked like SHIT, but the community supported not-EVER-intended-for-my-hardware OS worked PERFECTLY.

Most people would respond "if you had an OEM PC, Vista would work fine".

Point 1) My sister recently bought an OEM PC with Vista and the support STILL stinks.

Point 2) Why should I pay $500 more for a worse computer? (AND NO, DON'T EVEN TRY TO SAY "THEN WHY WOULD YOU GET A MAC?"! The reason I would pay $500 more for a Mac is that it is GUARANTEED TO WORK PERFECTLY because THE SOFTWARE and HARDWARE were MADE FOR EACH OTHER. Plus, a PC might last me 3 years and a mac will last me 5 or 6 years.)

So you use WIndows PCs all you want, but DON'T TELL ME HOW MUCH MAC SUCKS OR MAKE MISTAKES COMPARING THE TWO.

Whew.

*Rant ended, explosives in brain disarmed*

Sorry.


EDIT: Ugh, I sweat like a pig when I argue with random people I don't know over the internet.

Time for a shower.

ANOTHER EDIT:

Nice blog, BTW.

Still need to learn katakana, I'll use your tips. Thanks.

I think you are missing me completely on this on this. I never said mac sucks at all. It is a fine OS the comparisons on this post aren't honest though, same with some of the comments. If it was a 1 to 1 comparison he should use the current latest version of windows with the current latest version of OSX. Not a 9 year old version of Windows and the next version of OSX.

I too have run into the same problems you have with windows, but generally mine are all hardware compatibility problems at a hardware level. The problem with windows is also its greatest problem to much available hardware, same with linux. I commend apple for only sticking with one hardware configuration that way they can have a streamlined kernel that only needs to support ppc and intel x64 procs. Plus as I understand they get the center of the proc plates too so they get the higher quality processors over most other PC's too.

My biggest beef is this notion that no one uses Vista or that it is the worst thing to ever have. I personally, and those around me, have never had problems with Vista. however the few that have had problems are are always the loudest and most vocal therefore consensus reigns that it sucks. Once I was able to switch to Vista I have avoided Xp as much as possible and once i could use Windows 7, which I am on now, I haven't looked back at Vista.

And yes somethings are easier to do on Mac once you know how to do them just like any other computer. I have had to teach people at the college (I use college and university interchangeably) I go to how to install a program on a Mac because they couldn't figure it out. No offense to them is meant, but it is pretty easy even if you don't know how to do it. However, they are like many people when they start scared to touch stuff or do something until they are shown how to do it, but once shown they will do it forever that exact way.

As for the windows Mojave vs Vista. Apple did a damn good job on there FUD commercials it did scare people. Nvidia and ATI did a wonderful job too of putting out horrible drivers for the first year of Vista's release causing a TON of odd problems, some of that could be MS's fault to a degree since they completely change rendering of windows causing NVidia and ATI to rewrite the drivers from scratch. With both of those of course people are scared. However, once ATI and Nvidia fixed their driver problems Vista has become a very stable OS for most people. Windows 7 I have a feeling is going to be a huge hit because the video drivers aren't a problem anymore so and with the new development structure and VP over windows team windows 7 doesn't have as many hurdles to jump over. Vista did suck for the first year, for most people.

I will continue to use a windows based PC because I do like it and develop on the MS stack so it makes me money.

I know, 7 (the RC at least, the beta had video card driver issues for me) has been problem-free for me as well, but I still prefer OS X.

You like Vista/7, you use Vista/7.

I like OS X, I'll use OS X.

Agree to disagree.

I'm not disagreeing with whether or not you should use Vista/7/Windows in general, I disagree with your viewpoint on the subject.

Being a dev on OS X is great for me. Easy! Visual Basic/Csharp/C++/Whatever have always confused me, but Xcode is like heaven for me.

You like developing for MS, I like developing for Mac. Agree to disagree.

I still think that Snow Leopard and XP should be compared, because Snow Leopard will be out in 3 months with a few improvements, not any MAJOR ones (there are some big ones, but compared to the overhaul Leopard was (Like Vista was over XP! The difference being that Leopard still worked right off the bat), the SL update is puny). And XP is still used by the MAJORITY (yes, not all, I'm sorry) of Windows users. Although I would agree that a Windows 7 and Snow Leopard comparison would be more fair. It's not our fault that MS didn't put out a new OS for 6 years but released a huge service pack (SP2) while Apple pushes out 3 new major releases of OS X.

Here's my story:

I was using 2000 until Vista came out, so I had no eXPerience (haha) with XP. I was really exited with Vista, it looked great, it had a bunch of new features. I thought initially that it would be up to par with OS X by my standards (!) .

So, When Vista came out, I used my connections through MS and a friend got me a copy of Vista from the US. (mind you, it took 4 months getting here).

Long story short: It took four days to install because it would not recognize my SATA drives.

When it was working, it took me 4 hours longer to find and install the appropriate drivers.

After that ordeal, I was quite happy with it. It was pretty awesome. It had (some of the) the features I had longed for from OS X (I would not have been able to afford a Mac then), even if they were harder to use.

Then the driver issues came. I upgraded my video card from a 6X00 series Nvidia to an ATI Radeon 3850. I got my new video card drivers, and then about every 30 minutes it would go blank for a minute then the monitor would come back on saying "there was an error, but the driver has recovered". I had to live like that for about 3 more driver updates over the period of about 6 months. Then it was fine, but some of my older programs never worked in Vista, even with the damned "compatibility mode". So I experimented with Linux (which at that point worked better than Vista) for a while and used that every day instead of Vista. Then I got sick of the driver issues I was having in Linux.

Then, I tried XP. I STILL had issues with programs not working, dispite all I had heard about XP being infintely more usable and compatible than Vista. I also had mabye 1 or 2 driver issues in total, but they were not huge like the ones in Vista - the ones in XP were merely annoyances compared to the ones I had with Vista.

So, I hackintoshed my computer (I bought an official copy of OS X to make up for it). And it JUST WORKED (gasp xD)!!!! I was thrilled and I instantly fell in love with the simplicity and beauty that is OS X. And I've been an Apple fanboi ever since. I bought an iPod touch. I bought some nice apps. I got iWork and iLife (Which I love).

Every app I have ever downloaded for OS X has been SUPERB, something I can't say about Windows (can you say Softpedia?) OR Linux (Can you say absolutely positively NO proprietary (AKA working) drivers allowed?). I am thrilled with OS X, my iPod and my wonderful apps on OS X.

And I'm hooked.

I do dual-boot OS X Leopard with the 7 RC, but the 7 RC still doesn't run my older programs. I prefer OS X for this reason (that doesn't make immediate sense, see below)

The only thing about OS X is that there is little (official) gaming support. I avoid Darwine (because Wine never worked for me in Linux), and usually the official ports are buggy. But I manage. There are lots of community ports called "cider ports", which I get. I only get the ones of the games I own for Windows, though, otherwise it would be unethical. The cider and crossover ports work very well. So well that I can game entirely on OS X now - even my old games (yay for Baldur's Gate 2)!

So now, hopefully you understand why I scream bloody murder when people say how Windows is better than OS X or Linux is better than both - especially when the MISCOMPARE (I'm looking at you). After all the crap Windows/M$ has put me through. It would seem Apple is a love-it-or-hate-it kind of thing.

If I ever have to go back, it'll be to good ol' WIndows 2000. Never let me down when I had it.

Like I said in the beginning:

Agree to disagree.

You can like and use Windows.

I'll like and use OS X.

Let's stop arguing and resume learning Japanese, regardless of platform preference.

Jeez, I get pretty fired up when I argue about things that don't really matter at all. xD

Have a nice day,

MZLweasel

I agree on the agree to disagree agreement. Yeah windows unfortunately is plagued with bad, no horrible, 3rd party software and softpedia scares the hell out of me it just looks like a virus waiting to happen.

I will say when i use 2000 way back in the dayi was rock solid and I never messed with SATA either, never could afford it. Heck i can barely afford the dell desktop i just got, i hate being a intern developer still in college, no money.

honestly i'd probably use linux more if i didn't stop messing with nit picking configurations and i could play visual novels on it. For some reason cedega and wine refuse to play visual novels. Even doing them in windows VM Ware they suck.

ok back to smart.fm need to get back to studying for JLPT.

Good.

Have a nice day, good luck on your JLP test!

I seriously had no idea what I could do with this machine. Now I don't feel so bad about being out of Japan!! Thank you for this article, Tofugu!

i was shopping for a mac and the only one that would come close to meeting my spec required cost me a wallet crushing 2600 i search pc laptops and founf a dell the was even better (SPEC WISE) than the 17 inch macbook pro i wanted for less than 1200 mac is too expensive for standard hardware...your pay to have the logo but i must admit it i would have bought it if it wasn't so much

That's what you Windows people don't get about Macs...

While they may seem "underpowered" and you can get a Windows PC for less with better specs, Mac OS X runs fine on older hardware.

Example: I have a 1998 iMac running OS X 10.3 just fine.

Koichi-san,

You should also write an article about Japanese learning with the Nintendo DS. (Oops, I just checked and you did. But check out the games I list here)

I have several games imported from Play-Asia.com that help. You can even buy "My Japanese Coach" at a Best Buy/Frys/Future Shop/Whatever in the US and Canada.

Most of the games I have for learning Japanese are IN Japanese.

Examples of Jap learning games:
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-9g-49-jp-70...
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-9g-49-jp-70...
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-9g-49-jp-70...
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-9g-49-jp-70...

Zelda: Mugen no Sunadokei (Zelda: Phantom Hourglass) even gives you furigana if you tap and hold on the kanji!

oops, I just posted about this too hahahahah! I got mine from play asia as well :D I love it as a tool not just for their games meant for learning, but just playing games period. You get a lot of reading!

I'm not sure if anyone has posted about this before me, but Keyholetv does work for Macs. It's on their site; although the app itself is called "MacKeyholeTv". The app itself doesn't deliver amazing hd quality (well far from) but it's pretty compact and hassle free.

Good post though :D

I wish i had a mac I want to learn japanese ) >,:

You don't need a Mac to learn Japanese...

This will seem sorta left wall, but frankly i don't care what OS/hardware might have writing recognition by mouse, pad, or tablet when it comes to a computer or phone. :D I personally like my DS over anything these things can do any day for practicing writing. There are three "games" for the ds that specifically regard this last time i checked (maybe more now) 1 Japanese for English speakers written by English speakers, and 3 Japanese ones written for Japanese by the Japanese.

The reason I prefer it over the others is when i use the game i have its simple, fast, exactly feels like writing, doesn't kill trees, doesn't cost me money in pencils and paper, and the system for the game that I have is so good that it tells me what to change: if my strokes are in the wrong order, if the intersections are wrong and by how much, ect., covers all kana, and over 3k standard kanji. Not to mention this one is completely in Japanese, meant for the Japanese, and has kanji exercises everywhere. Its the best thing I've ever seen for the writing and practicing of kanji. :D okay okay, left wall ending :P

I think that rather than trying to push one outlet for studying over another we should all embrace the thousands of tools out there to get us where we're going! If it gets you there, then by god, lets have a party! Of course, buying a ds just for a game for learning isn't practical lol, but just wanted to put that out there since we're talking about hardware for our language software needs lol

One thing that I didn't see mentioned is that when you order your Mac through the Apple Store _online_, you can order a Japanese keyboard. That's right, a real Japanese keyboard that has kana on the keys and has the button to switch between katakana and hiragana. Take that, PC/Micro$oft lovers! :P

Macs are cool

I've found Ubuntu to be superior to windows in every way. When installing it, it only asks like five simple questions, unlike Vista's hourlong interrogation. I'm running 64-bit KeyholeTV for Linux right now and it plays perfectly. On Windows XP with the same internet connection it's hella glitchy. It only takes a couple clicks to download japanese language support and I can easily switch all the menus back and forth with three clicks and a reboot.

yo just to let you know macs and pc's are the same, they use exactly the same hardware, im serious EXACTLY THE SAME. The commercials outlining the difference between a mac and a pc are false advertising. I dual boot xp, windows 7 and osx on my pc. Im not trying to flame you but congrats on being sucked into a fad, macs are just a fashion statement. If you want more info on this search osX86.

There are a few other nice things too.

Kotoeri has the reverse conversion 逆変換 feature which comes in handy when you're too lazy to look a reading of some kanji up. Not sure if windows has this too.

Oh yeah, keyholetv has a mac version. It's buggy and the quality is just as bad as it's windows counterpart though.

Truthfully I had no problem with installing the 日本語　IME　on my PC. Plus, it already came with a built in webcam with TWO mics for stereo mic recording. And though it's true that you can just write the symbol on the laptop's built-in mouse, there's another IME tool that allows you to draw it on the computer either with a mouse or a tablet.

Mac vs PC? They're both just as good!

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